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marmarisbhoy

'Roll of Honour'

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The Roll of Honour - where is the offence?

Published on Wednesday 9th October, 2013 by Celtic Trust.

 

 

As the Police Service of Scotland conduct 7am raids on the homes of young men who may, or may not, have sung a song at a football match some weeks ago, the Celtic Trust publishes the words of the song and asks, where does this song offer anyone any offence?  It represents a record of a particular period in the history of the relationship between Britain and Ireland (more than three decades ago); it honours the memory of those young men who fought for the cause of a united Ireland (you don't have to agree with that to note their bravery) and it represents a continuing aspiration to an Ireland free from British rule and that is about it.  It does not use sectarian language, it doesn't insult anyone (except a state/system) and it does not call on anyone to use violence nor does it glorify violence. 

 

In the ultimate irony the Scottish Government, through it's national police force, seeks to criminalise those who honour men who died to oppose criminalisation. 

 

In very few conflicts is it ever wise or even correct to assume that one side was completely good and the other completely bad.  The thing about democracy is you cannot say you are offended by someone having a different interpretation of history or politics and expect the state to protect you from that offence, whether in a football ground or anywhere else. 

 

We do not call on anyone to sing this or any other song but we do say that it does not offer offence (except where people choose to be offended by the rights of others to hold their own views) and it should not be criminalised.  The Offensive Behaviour Act is anti-democratic and it needs to go.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Would you be arrested for singing The Roll of Honour in any other country in the world?

 

If not, what makes scotland different, and what exactly does the country find offensive about it ?

 

Could it be that the majority of the country find the people singing this ballad abhorrent, as they associate it with Roman Catholicism ?

 

If that's the case then i find that 'Offensive'.

bigshaunfromthemilk likes this

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One question:

 

What  relevance has any of it got to do with a Football match?

 

Politics and Sport should never be mixed regardless of the subject matter.

Politics within Sport is an entirely different matter but that too should be carried out in Boardrooms far away from games and by People directly involved.

 

We all know what's coming up next month again.

Same old pointless debate we have every year.

 

Kick the lot of it to fuck out of touch I say and let the Sport do the talking on the Park and let everyone enjoy it off it.

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If you take your time ('squaddie like') and re-read the post again................take your time............

 

Now the question i was asking is the same as 'The Celtic Trust' is asking.

 

 

Where is the offence in the song?

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If you take your time ('squaddie like') and re-read the post again................take your time............

 

Now the question i was asking is the same as 'The Celtic Trust' is asking.

 

 

Where is the offence in the song?

I don't know ask those that are offended by it?

Back to my question now again;

 

What relevance has it at a Football match?

Take your time if you like...

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The reason i ask the question is because we have'nt had a discussion on CT on offensive songs.(and why is this song deemed offensive)

 

There is an argument of course for it to be sang in a football stadium, or not, but that's not where i was going with this.

 

What part of the song is offensive ?

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The reason i ask the question is because we have'nt had a discussion on CT on offensive songs.(and why is this song deemed offensive)

 

There is an argument of course for it to be sang in a football stadium, or not, but that's not where i was going with this.

 

What part of the song is offensive ?

I cannot see where it is deemed offensive myself unless of course you are a relative or friend of some of their victims?

Surely the immediate question for the Celtic Trust should be what relevance it has to do with Celtic and why bother?

 

As a wise man once said:

‘The Wreckers are chanting about things that have nothing to do with football’

I don’t like criticising Celtic fans. But I have to take odds with at least a section of them. What I did on Saturday was something I’ve felt like doing for quite a while.

It’s my sincere wish that it will have a lasting effect, as I’m sure that the vast majority of our fans do. Celtic supporters have enjoyed a lot of good times during the past few years and all of it was due to hard work – by the players, the backroom boys and the directors.

The fans too have played a major role and we don’t want to see it all ruined now by the bad element who have recently emerged. Nor do we want to see the fans of long standing who followed us through the lean years discouraged from watching us play.

This bad element – or the wreckers as the View called them last week – are singing and chanting about things which have nothing to do with football.

Surely there are enough Celtic songs without introducing religion or politics or anything else.

Jock Stein

 

 

The only time you will see me write this phrase (and for the right reason)

Big Jock Knew.

 

One day a calm will wash right over the full support at Celtic and Common Sense in the end will prevail.

 

Roll of Honour might not be offensive to everyone

But it is indeed a pointless,fruitless  exercise to a great many looking on and in.

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This song and many more Irish Ballads like it are sang every 2nd week in the new 'Kerrydale Bar' inside Celtic Park.

 

The bar is ran, licensed, and operated by Celtic PLC.

 

The whole point though here is, that this bill is becoming an embarrassment at every level.

 

And it must be costing the UK tax payer Millions now?

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This song and many more Irish Ballads like it are sang every 2nd week in the new 'Kerrydale Bar' inside Celtic Park.

 

The bar is ran, licensed, and operated by Celtic PLC.

 

The whole point though here is, that this bill is becoming an embarrassment at every level.

 

And it must be costing the UK tax payer Millions now?

What happens in the Bar is not relevant as far as I am aware they don't show live footage of any of the bars on National; Telly?

The Bill needs sorting we all know that but I am of the opinion prevention is alway's better than cure in the long run Marm.

 

The Old Speed Camera thing again...No cunt speeds no need for Cameras.

 

Simples.

 

Big Jock had it spot on....In 1972

 

41 years later ...

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I have to agree with both you, agree with marm there's no offence in it, agree with kenny that there's plenty of other songs about the club that could be sung. 

 

The difficulty is that Celtic plc try to have their cake and eat it in this whole area, the irish niche and playing to it makes them a lot of money but they have to try and control it so it's all shamrocks and leprechauns rather than politics and struggle.

 

Obviously they aren't the only club around that have to temper the gains from the heritage and identity differentiation strategy, newco and the british "loyal" thing, man city in not being utd, spurs and the jewish identity which is causing them problems and bringing more talk of offensive behaviour into the fold in England. 

 

My preference is for the football and the entertainment to be a release from real life not a stark reminder of how horrible it can be. 

Who Killed Kenny? likes this

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I have to agree with both you, agree with marm there's no offence in it, agree with kenny that there's plenty of other songs about the club that could be sung. 

 

The difficulty is that Celtic plc try to have their cake and eat it in this whole area, the irish niche and playing to it makes them a lot of money but they have to try and control it so it's all shamrocks and leprechauns rather than politics and struggle.

 

Obviously they aren't the only club around that have to temper the gains from the heritage and identity differentiation strategy, newco and the british "loyal" thing, man city in not being utd, spurs and the jewish identity which is causing them problems and bringing more talk of offensive behaviour into the fold in England. 

 

My preference is for the football and the entertainment to be a release from real life not a stark reminder of how horrible it can be. 

 

 

The way i see it Mr fish, is, if they keep arresting folk and get zero convictions it will only be sung more often and with a bit more gussto.

 

It's a song i personally like, and ive sang it many times inside stadiums, non more so than in Hamburg, when we were awarded the butchers apron show from the hard left wingers in among'st the Hamburg support, a nice 'wind-up' from both sets of supporters which maybe made to the atmosphere on the night ?

 

A song's never killed anyone inside a stadium as far as i'm aware ?

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One question:   What  relevance has any of it got to do with a Football match?   Politics and Sport should never be mixed regardless of the subject matter. Politics within Sport is an entirely different matter but that too should be carried out in Boardrooms far away from games and by People directly involved.   We all know what's coming up next month again. Same old pointless debate we have every year.   Kick the lot of it to fuck out of touch I say and let the Sport do the talking on the Park and let everyone enjoy it off it.
It has plenty to do with a football match coz people are being arrested for singing this song at football matches
CELTICREBEL88 likes this

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How ironic. Sky Sports shows live the ingerlish nashnal anthem God save our qween. This wee ditty has during its lifetime indirectly slaughtered hundreds of thousands of bystanders.

Send her victorious, sure lets do that, as long as the armed forces are not being sectarian or offensive in any way to those on the receiving end of some good natured stick which in the past always ended in death.

Us few poor old Tic fans singin the songs from our forefathers receive police orders to cease and disisst. GTF

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Fine line between free speech and sectarianism

Published on 20 September 2013

Herald View

From the start, it was clear that the Scottish Government's legislation to tackle sectarianism was well intentioned but deeply flawed and the first two years of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012 have only emphasised those flaws and deepened discontent and doubt.

Football fans do not like it; many lawyers, including sheriffs, have no respect for it; police officers are confused by it; and some religious groups have doubted its effectiveness from the start. The only support, it seems, comes from the Scottish Government itself.

Now another voice has joined the chants of discontent. In a new pamphlet on freedom of expression from The Saltire Society, two Scottish writers, the novelist Alan Bissett and the journalist Jean Rafferty, have discussed the 2012 Act and what they see as its invidious impact on free speech.

Both writers accept Scotland has a problem with sectarianism, but Mr Bissett believes the act is damaging. "It is not the place of government," he says, "to circumscribe which political slogans can and can't be sung by adults. We have the right to criticise, say, the Catholic Church or the actions of the IRA, in whichever terms we like."

This is an objection to the act in principle but it goes too far - most Scots think we should tackle sectarianism, and every democratic society imposes some limits on free speech. The problem with the act lies not in the principle but the practice and distinguishing between what is sectarianism and what is not. It is police officers, publicans on match days, and the courts who have been left to work it out and there is still confusion. Just a few weeks ago, a Celtic fan who was tried twice for singing a pro-IRA song was acquitted when the appeal court ruled it was not likely to incite public disorder (which it must do to constitute an offence under the act).

It is this confusion which has undermined confidence in the act. As Mr Bissett points out, who decides what is offensive, to whom, and why? The act does not answer these questions and has left the police on the ground trying to find the answers - at a considerable cost to their relationship with the fans.

No-one questions that there was a problem for the act to tackle - the legislation was passed in response to some shocking examples of sectarianism. But in seeking to tackle the issue so quickly, the Government charged into the tricky area between free speech and offensive behaviour without properly defining either.

In the two years since it was passed, the evidence against the act has accumulated, including the low number of convictions: under 100 despite the existence of a police unit focused on pursuing them. Not only that - as the Saltire Society's pamphlet points out - most of those convictions were covered under existing legislation anyway.

All of these doubts mean a review of the act is now urgently needed. Scotland has a problem with sectarianism. The last two years have proved the 2012 Act is not the answer.

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What happens in the Bar is not relevant as far as I am aware they don't show live footage of any of the bars on National; Telly?

The Bill needs sorting we all know that but I am of the opinion prevention is alway's better than cure in the long run Marm.

 

The Old Speed Camera thing again...No cunt speeds no need for Cameras.

 

Simples.

 

Big Jock had it spot on....In 1972

 

41 years later ...

 

 

The comparison to speeding has NO relevance to this discussion, there are very CLEAR definitions as to what the speed limits is/are.

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Bump

I cannot see where it is deemed offensive myself unless of course you are a relative or friend of some of their victims?

Surely the immediate question for the Celtic Trust should be what relevance it has to do with Celtic and why bother?

 

As a wise man once said:

‘The Wreckers are chanting about things that have nothing to do with football’

I don’t like criticising Celtic fans. But I have to take odds with at least a section of them. What I did on Saturday was something I’ve felt like doing for quite a while.

It’s my sincere wish that it will have a lasting effect, as I’m sure that the vast majority of our fans do. Celtic supporters have enjoyed a lot of good times during the past few years and all of it was due to hard work – by the players, the backroom boys and the directors.

The fans too have played a major role and we don’t want to see it all ruined now by the bad element who have recently emerged. Nor do we want to see the fans of long standing who followed us through the lean years discouraged from watching us play.

This bad element – or the wreckers as the View called them last week – are singing and chanting about things which have nothing to do with football.

Surely there are enough Celtic songs without introducing religion or politics or anything else.

Jock Stein

 

 

The only time you will see me write this phrase (and for the right reason)

Big Jock Knew.

 

One day a calm will wash right over the full support at Celtic and Common Sense in the end will prevail.

 

Roll of Honour might not be offensive to everyone

But it is indeed a pointless,fruitless  exercise to a great many looking on and in.

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The comparison to speeding has NO relevance to this discussion, there are very CLEAR definitions as to what the speed limits is/are.

The Law was brought in to put and end to Sectarian Offensive Behavior.

There would have been no need for this knee jerk reaction of course by Government had the fannies who persisted in doing these things simply ceased for the sake of everyone else.

The same logic can be applied to those who complain about Speed Cameras (like those who complain about this ruling) If everyone made a concerted effort not to speed and adhere to the limits set then there would be absolutely no need for Cameras.

 

As the Big Man once said "Surely there are enough Celtic songs without introducing religion or politics or anything else."

 

1972 he said that...41 years ago.

Roll of Honour has no place at a Football Ground in 2013 whether it is deemed offensive to you or I is irrelevant it is whether it is offensive to anyone is the consideration those that sing it at a Sporting Event should have before they choose to do so.

But that's the point though is not?Those that sing Political shite at games simply could not give a fuck either way.

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During the dark days of south african apratheid, and the boycotting of rugby and cricket  my old fella used to say, "keep politics outta sport"

 

but banning singing is kinda weird to me too, Sure ban sectarianism and bigotry, and racial hatred and xenophobia, but banning singing is weird...

 

is it certain words in songs, or contextual meaning in relation to cause offence, I dont understand, is it a mind control issue here we are debating?

 

I never understand the words of the songs most of the time, except when it's about the ref lol...

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Zero arrests at CP as the Floor Cleaners from Amsterdam decided to re-arrange the seating in the 'Away Section'.

 

' F##k the Pope' sang while strolling along the road leading up to CP (and inside the ground).............Zero arrests again.

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Celtic Green Brigade fans face trial over 'IRA song'

Seven members of the Green Brigade group of Celtic fans are to stand trial next year for allegedly singing a song in support of the IRA.

They are alleged to have behaved in a way that "is likely or would be likely to incite public disorder" by singing the Roll of Honour at Celtic Park.

The singing is said to have taken place at various home games at Celtic Park in July and August.

All of the men pleaded not guilty when they appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court.

Paul Duke, 37, and Ross Gallagher, 29, from East Kilbride, Christopher Bateman, 28, from Irvine, David Gallacher, 22, from Glasgow, Sean Cowden, 21, from Rutherglen and Kieran Duffy, 18, from Coatbridge, are accused of singing the song at the Champions League qualifier match against Elfsborg on 31 July.

Mr Gallagher, Mr Bateman and Greg Robertson, 28, from Glasgow, are accused of singing the song on 3 August at a league game against Ross County.

Mr Robertson faces a further charge, with Mr Gallacher, of singing at a home game on 24 August against Inverness Caledonian Thistle.

The men deny all the charges against them. A trial was set for next June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25418578

 

While I might not agree with the song being sung because I put Celtic above Ireland in my list of priorities I have to question the charge "is likely or would be likely to incite public disorder", how? That makes no sense at all, are the handful of Swedish supporters going to kick off because of a song about Irish politics? For that charge to make sense the context would have to be standing outside Ibrox as a game ends and singing it to people coming out of the stadium or at unionist demonstration, then it could likely incite public disorder. I would imagine this is why they have plead not guilty and that this will be the basis of their defence. 

 

Is their not already precedent for this charge being thrown out on these grounds? Even if someone found it offensive, finding something offensive does not make it illegal and if they did take offense no one in Celtic Park at that time would have engaged in public disorder over it, at most they would give a tut or a sigh if they didn't like it. 

 

Quickest trial ever did you sing the song? Yes. Did you incite or where you ever likely to incite public disorder? No. 

 

It's completely different to incitement to racial or ethical hatred because it doesn't matter where or when you do that. 

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The offensive behaviour bill is now targeting normal law abiding citizens who just happen to be Celtic Supporters.

 

And the song is perfectly legal to sing, the song is not classed as 'sectarian' under ANY legislation.

 

The bigger question is WHY has our club remained silent on these issues, when they have said in 3 statements now that they are against this legislation.

 

Time the board was replaced, and the absent majority share-holder.

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While I might not agree with the song being sung because I put Celtic above Ireland in my list of priorities I have to question the charge "is likely or would be likely to incite public disorder", how? That makes no sense at all, are the handful of Swedish supporters going to kick off because of a song about Irish politics? For that charge to make sense the context would have to be standing outside Ibrox as a game ends and singing it to people coming out of the stadium or at unionist demonstration, then it could likely incite public disorder. I would imagine this is why they have plead not guilty and that this will be the basis of their defence. 

 

Is their not already precedent for this charge being thrown out on these grounds? Even if someone found it offensive, finding something offensive does not make it illegal and if they did take offense no one in Celtic Park at that time would have engaged in public disorder over it, at most they would give a tut or a sigh if they didn't like it. 

 

Quickest trial ever did you sing the song? Yes. Did you incite or where you ever likely to incite public disorder? No. 

 

It's completely different to incitement to racial or ethical hatred because it doesn't matter where or when you do that. 

 

 

 

My own opinion (and i'm certainly not in the minority here as far as Supporter opinion goes) is that this act is 'Discriminately' specifically designed and aimed at Celtic Supporters and Celtic minded people and rushed through.

 

Christine Graham is 'On-Camera' telling you that she wants Celtic Supporters convicted to even up the stats. FACT.

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