fishsticks

Convincing argument against independence

381 posts in this topic

Reminds me of Doug Stanhope talking to a BNP guy outside a (old) Rangers v Hearts game.....

 

 

He swears a bit and cuts close to the bone but if you don't mind that he's an absolutely brilliant comedian. 

McGuire likes this

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Yet another bullshit argument against self-determination. Last week it was George Robertson telling us it will be "cataclysmic", destabilising the entire world, and now Galloway claiming we'll be lining up for ethnic cleansing in "Salmond's Scotland". Can we again point out the reality that we will still live in a representative democracy, we'll still have free elections, we are not voting for a new emperor. Independence is not about the SNP, it's about Scotland.

 

These ancient attitudes have to be kicked out, do we not think perhaps a driver of bigotry, hatred and violence is maybe poverty?

 

Do you not think it's a nonsense that instead of real debate we have people stir up tensions and use the very thing they are warning against? They are tapping into bigotry when it suits their own needs, putting the electorate into boxes because we're all the same obviously, "the rangers fans are all protestants, most of the nationalists are protestants" then we're told the rest of the time "all the rangers fans are unionists", how does that work out? If the country is split in two, ra peeeple and the tims and all the rangers folk are unionists and all the celtic minded are socialists then how on earth are the Conservatives (the unionist party) not better represented? How are the SNP doing so well? Who is voting for them? All those protestants, just waiting to drive the Catholics out of Scotland? the same ones who are all unionists?

 

Primary argument for independence, we're an aging nation, we need immigrants to ensure we have enough people of working age. Different needs from England, that's why on a whole we have different attitudes toward immigration and Europe, if you believe the media. One of if not the largest growing ethnic group in Scotland? The Polish. Predominant religion amongst the Polish? Catholic. So we need more people and we're shipping in Catholics, is that a plot to get them all here first so there's more to persecute?

 

The other warning from Galloway was that we should reject this notion of a socialist utopia because even if we're independent we won't be allowed to have the government we want because of the perma-tories that will run england forever without the scottish voters supporting Labour. Yes because your larger neighbour always dictates how you run your country, that's what Canada doesn't have socialised medicine (it does) and Cuba is totally a hive of capitalism because they are next door to a powerful country.

 

Do you not see this ridiculously cruel trick of using the exact things they are warning against to ensure that there's no change to the status quo? That's why we get these conflicting arguments, on one hand we're told that the Scottish vote only made a difference in the outcome of a handful of elections since the war and then on the other George is telling us we'll be condemning  England to an eternity of extreme right wing conservatism. 

 

Remember for years we were told the SNP were just the Scottish tories. Remember when labour finally got back in and not much changed really. Remember then that the SNP took Holyrood and somehow the "Scottish tories" had far more socialist policies that it actually put into action than Labour so that argument was kind of rubbished. So in our own country, we could have a real socialist labour party, a real conservative party, a real liberal party etc and they would not have to pander to the South of England. 

 

A vote for independence, the end of the world and the Catholics will be the first against the wall, if you believe these two. 

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1:40 "If we get Independance we would be livin on £10 Giros man"

Get a joab ya fud and while yer at it look in the mirror and ask yersel what kind of Scotsman would be seen deid wearing an England top?

 

This video is not an argument for saving the Union it's categoric proof that smack heids should be sterilised.

Gazzola likes this

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This Independance shite is nothing more than Salmond trying to write himself into the history books of Scotland.

The c**t fantasizes about seeing himself on Shortbread tins dressed in full Hunting Tartan like some modern day William Wallace.

He's a fucking clown....They all are.

 

Scotland is and always will be Scotland regardless of whether it is part of the Union or not as a Nation Scotland is far better off part of a Larger Nation.

The answer is simple keep the Unity but dissolved the power in Westminster and form Regional Assemblies which Govern the Local Area with policies that are streamlined to that Areas needs and wants.

London should be treated as an are in it's own right it should have it's own Assembly geared to it's own needs too.

 

The "Big Pot" ie the sum of money the Country currently lives off should be split up between each of these areas equally and by equally I mean £x's/Head of Population.

It could be split up as Follows:

SCOTLAND

WALES

NORTHERN IRELAND

NORTHE OF ENGLAND 

MIDLANDS

SOUTH

LONDON

 

These Assemblies could be set up primarily to deal with..

HEALTH

POLICING

EDUCATION

INDUSTRY

LOCAL AUTHORITY.COUNCILS

ENTERPRISE

 

The Major stuff ie..

DEFENCE

EUROPE

INTERNATIONAL MATTERS

TRADE

LAW

IMMIGRATION

etc Should continue to be dealt with a Streamlined and more efficient Westminster.

 

Labour have mooted a similar proposal in Scotland as a counter argument to Independence and I think this is a much better path to take than a full split.

This way Scotland will get to have a greater say in the things that directly affect everyone on a daily basis.

We like Wales and Northern Ireland already have our Assemblies in place so it would only be a matter for the English Regions to follow suit.

The other positive aspect to this is you are Immediately ruled over by those people you have chosen to vote in and not like the current system rule over by those in London you simply cannot stomach as has been the case over the past 4 years or so.

The People in the North of England are just as pissed off with those down South as The Scots they too see the Billions being poured into the Capital whilst the rest go take a hike.

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The Major stuff ie..

DEFENCE

EUROPE

INTERNATIONAL MATTERS

TRADE

LAW

IMMIGRATION

etc Should continue to be dealt with a Streamlined and more efficient Westminster.

 

 

 

We've always had a separate legal system.

The attitude toward Europe is completely different here than it is down south. 

Why should we spend so much money on a military and have nuclear weapons kept here?

We have different immigration needs, we need immigrants, the noise from down south is that they don't want them. 

 

 

Also the it being about Salmond argument is a nonsense, it's about Scotland. If we stay or go it's because the people chose, not because of one man.

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We've always had a separate legal system.

The attitude toward Europe is completely different here than it is down south. 

Why should we spend so much money on a military and have nuclear weapons kept here?

We have different immigration needs, we need immigrants, the noise from down south is that they don't want them. 

 

 

Also the it being about Salmond argument is a nonsense, it's about Scotland. If we stay or go it's because the people chose, not because of one man.

It's about devolving power from London Fishy and spreading that Power to each area where the People who live,trade and provide there can allocate the funds to where they are most needed.

 

Scotland was Scotland before Salmond ever walked the earth and she will still be Scotland long after he departs it regardless of whether we are in the Union or not.

He's in it for himself as they all are in Politics he does not give two shites for the wee man and woman in the street.

 

It's all about writing himself a wee Chapter in the History Books like fu**ing Blair,Thatcher and the many more megalomaniacs before them.

If anyone voting Yes for this thinks this will have a positive effect on their general Wealth and Well being then they are sadly deluded.

 

Picture this..

Scotland gains Independence 18 month Later we enter into another Global Financial Meltdown as China reveals it's "Boom" has been built on massive debt.

 

What then?

Scotland would be fucked.

It will take Decades for Scotland to get on her feet Financially once the money stops from Westminster.

The major Industries that once were the backbone of our Nation have long since been sodomized and neglected.

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and when the oil runs out.................. :ph34r:

it's ok coz almost 2 thirds of tourism in the uk is in Scotland or how about the exports we do that is vated to fook for an English econamy

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and when the oil runs out.................. :ph34r:

 

Free the weed and turn Gretna into the new Amsterdam, we'll make a fortune off English stoners. 

 

But seriously, when you hear about these "sovereign wealth funds", that's when a country invests it's money like Qatar, Norway, China etc. if you think of the big oil producing nations they have US Dollars which are just pieces of paper, there's no point keeping them in a vault so they buy up companies, land, property etc around the globe. So you make the money work for you. 

 

The reason Thatcher fucked up was that we had all this oil money and instead of using it, perhaps subsidising ship yards and coal mines to keep them competitive and people in jobs rather than selling them off which left even more cash. So rather than investing this cash bankers in London got massive bonuses and gave out cheap loans and all the money in the system and easy credit drove prices up but it was a bubble based on nothing really so we had a massive economic crash because it was unsustainable.

 

So we're still paying the price for that and then Gordon Brown punted the gold at the bottom of the market which didn't help.

 

Anyway that's what happens when the oil runs out, we make hay while the sun shines and invest, develop technology so that we can be the forefront of whatever replaces oil, like we're doing with wind and wave power. Ideally becoming a nation of engineers as opposed to a nation of services, services can be easily replicated in cheaper locations as we saw with call centres being shipped overseas.

 

I was at a lecture given by a couple of people who work for Morgan Stanley and they do this in the banking sector too, they are moving away from "core locations" like New York and London because they learned with 9/11 that having the bulk of your business in one location leaves you vulnerable. So the upshot of that is, their Glasgow office is cheaper to run than the London office so any work that can be moved is, similarly moving work to India or any of their other list of foreign offices can be cheaper again. That's the deal with globalisation, using your resources as efficiently as possible with the lowest cost. 

 

I really would like to see us become a nation that produced something as there's true value in that. 

pepperami likes this

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I agree but whilst China is dominating the World supplying cheap shite off the back of a "Boom " built on massive credit and Debt then there's little scope right now for a small Nation like ours getting a shoe in Fishy.

Salmond is talking about the here and now he's not taking into consideration the next 100 years and beyond.

This vote now could have massive negative consequences for Generations to come bud.

I fear Independance right now would be a massive Gamble pal for Scotland to take myself.

Leave it 5-10 years and wait and see how the Financial Climate Globally is fixed otherwise a Financial Catastrophe in say China (There's proof that this may well be the case in the not too distant future as Chinas expansion has been financed by massive debt) could well plunge us all back into another Worldwide recession.

 

Seriously forget Salmon and start thinking of the bigger picture he's a Shortbread Tin Scotsman with a heid full of Patriotic Shite.

 

All the things you have said in your last post are correct and all of those things can be achieved within the Union it's about spreading the Nations Purse fairly and equally and allowing those areas that have Industries to expand and develop further.

 

Regional Assemblies would be the way forward in my opinion.

 

There's only Fish & Harry who gets to vote on this thread  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

An interesting point you make and thanks to Mr Salmond those of us who were born and bred in Scotland have no say yet a clueless 16 year old does?

 

Go figure why that is.

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The bigger picture....

 

Last year, the World Bank published a massive report concluding that the Chinese government must revamp its economy and social services if it hopes to survive.

“The case for reform is compelling,” the bank’s president, Robert Zoellick, said at a news conference in Beijing shortly before he left office. “China has reached a turning point in its development path.”

Some Chinese experts have now broken the great wall of denial to say the same things. The situation is growing so serious that Strategy and Reform, one of China’s think tanks, warned publicly last fall that the country “is confronting a perilous jump, one it can neither hide from nor avoid—no matter what. There’s a potential crisis in China’s model of economic growth.”

 

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/china%E2%80%99s-looming-crisis-daunting-troubles-mount

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The bigger picture....

 

Last year, the World Bank published a massive report concluding that the Chinese government must revamp its economy and social services if it hopes to survive.

“The case for reform is compelling,” the bank’s president, Robert Zoellick, said at a news conference in Beijing shortly before he left office. “China has reached a turning point in its development path.”

Some Chinese experts have now broken the great wall of denial to say the same things. The situation is growing so serious that Strategy and Reform, one of China’s think tanks, warned publicly last fall that the country “is confronting a perilous jump, one it can neither hide from nor avoid—no matter what. There’s a potential crisis in China’s model of economic growth.”

 

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/china%E2%80%99s-looming-crisis-daunting-troubles-mount

 

That's because they keep their currency artificially low to increase exports, after they move on from that we'll see all our cheap manufacturing come from Africa eventually. That's why China invests heavily in Africa, they take all the USD that are worth nothing really and they buy up interests in developing nations. 

 

As they continue to sell anything of value off in the UK like, for example, royal mail, they sell to institutional investors like big pension funds and sovereign wealth funds. Again they sold that off cheap like they did with the water and electricity and the gas and the housing stock and everything else to balance the books. So as the chinese export model is unsustainable in that time they'll own the next big exporters, or anything of value in those countries, the roads, the trains, the utilities. 

 

That's how empires work now, you don't go in with armies, you just buy everything of value. Letting the people in these countries believe they are free, less hassle, greater control, less chance of rejection. 

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According to what I have read the real money men in China are leaving in their droves bud..taking their wealth with them it would appear.

A financial meltdown in China akin to the one in Japan over a decade ago would have serious ramifications for many Countries around the globe this is why I think the notion of Inependence at this time is a very dangerous game.

 

What's the rush?

 

Start building for a future Inedendent Scotland now by all means but ffs bide yer time till the right moment arrives in say 5-10-20 years when the Global landscape has settled and we know the markets are stable.

 

Giving Holyrood more flexibility and powers to assist in that process may well be a better solution methinks?

Giving Scotland more money to be ploughed into Industry and Innovation will have a far better impact on Scotland as a Nation and it's people than heading blind into a snowstorm as Salmond and Co are suggesting you do?

The fact that cunt suggested a 16 year old is better suited to make a rational decision on the future of our Nation say's it all really bud?

I have over 25 years experience in the real world over these kids and there are a great many dotted allover the place with far more experience who have been denied a say in the future of their Homeland based simply on the fact I no longer reside in Scotland at present.

 

That is a fucking disgrace btw.

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Now is the right time, just going into another global boom. 

 

The best argument I've heard for "allowing" 16 year olds to vote, they can pay tax, taking your money and not giving you a say is criminal. 

pepperami likes this

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